The "The Lost Generation" is the title we have been so aptly given. But why are we lost?? We first can look at the generation itself. We have kids from young ages getting into drugs, alcohol, and tabaco. Teenagers and younger breaking into violence as what seems to be the only sensible solution to them. Setting fires using homemade napalm, flamethrowers, grenades, and chemicals such as thermite or nitroglycerine. Stealing from stores, schools, and people just for the adreniline. Driving recklessly for the thrill with no consideration of others on the road. Getting drunk out of there mind to the point where they dont even remember what happened. Having promiscous sex just for the pleasure. We look at these superficial examples and say wow thats messed up and everyone knows that it happens. Only today did I realize how bad it is. I know a kid who has a warrant and felony on him at all times. Rakes in money selling drugs 24/7 and goes to jail almost every weekend. Today one of my friends was beat with a metal bat by his older brother to the point of taken to the hospital and believed to have a fractured spine and torn ligamnets in his legs. Almost every single kids I knew was getting stoned today or making plans. One kid was punched and called "Fucking pot head" by his father. We could once again keep going on and on.
But the real question is what causes these trends now these days? Some say its just teenagers being teenagers. But the more I thought about it...could it be parents?? One of my best girl friends had her jaw knocked out by her dad when she was young. Her dad cheated on her mum all the time. My mum cheated on my family. My dad was nothing but verbally abusive (he was offered drill sergeant in Marines because of voice). Almost everyone of my friends has parnets either divorced or in jail. I even know a few kids who dont even live with their parents and their only about 15. The more I look at it the more I think everything to blame is from parents. Not just parents in general but parents who dont love their children. The lost generation could easily be called the unloved generation as well. They have never been loved or nurtured in a way that would avoid the current problems they go through. Everything, the drugs the sex the alcohol are all attempts at getting away from it. When that fails you often here of shootings and suicides. They realize there is no way to get away from the pain inside. In one last desperate attempt they put the gun to themselves hopeing to finally get away from it. The real shame is that they will just go to hell and know nothing but pain for eternity...it hardly seems fair.
You have to wonder is it really such a surprise?? The lost generation has been methodically trained to be this way and it will only get worse and worse. The only who seem to be left are the christians and sometimes religous in general but we can see the study trend of those even being wiped out. Pullman Christian School has slowly been taken over and has produced two of the biggest drug dealers in pullman. SWAT tapped their lines for months and finally busted them. Each one was held on 50K bond. Either way...perhaps the end is near. Not the end of the world but the end of true joy, true love, true passion.
This can not be said to be the Lost generation I think... at least not THE lost generation. I think it is the first of many many more. A forshadowing of what is to come. And that is pure desolation and despair. A loss of all hope and meanging.... in the end everyones life will be staring down a 45. or on painkillers whil watching their wrist breed a bright scarlet red. Then future does not look bright in any way. All I see is pitch black.
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Josh - you are a perceptive fellow. You clearly have been handed a lot more to deal with than most of us have. I wonder if there is a way you could use your experience to help others? It is great that you are trying to make sense of it all, instead of just accepting it as just the way things are. There is a better way. Unconditional love from our parents, and towards our spouses. Loving and cherishing our spouses. You write well and think things through. I am not saying you have it ALL figured out, none of us do. But at least you are making an effort. I just want to encourage you to not let the darkness overtake you. The world needs you.
My name is Paul, and you probably won't like me.
I am posting because Geoff and Ashley are beloved, and your present misery is attractive to them. I’d like to have made your acquaintance under better circumstances, but…
If you really believe that there’s far worse generations of despondent killers yet ahead, will you be leading the pack? Why not? Does your gloomy prophetic perspective require my friends to co-sign and buy in?
Mr. Appleseed is flat wrong. The world doesn't need you. It wants you to perish with it. Why should you give a whiff for a world that would not even pause for a second at your funeral?
But you are right about one thing: evil exists, and you feel it.
A wise man once said that while nihilists tried their darnedest to eliminate the face and the fact of evil, they couldn’t get rid of the feeling it provokes within all of us. There's the rub.
One of the big problems you have, as I read you, is that you cannot tell who or what is evil because you are cut loose from reality Himself. You are stuck in the rut of seeking to point fingers with a moral critique, all the while denying the foundation necessary for all criticism in the first place. Hollow clamor, really.
“True love, true joy, and true passion…”? As if you know what these things are? What are they, and where do they come from? How are they expressed purely, and for what purpose? Such a rant as yours begs far more questions than it can ever hope to answer. You can invent your own subjective, relativistic answers, but then they would only be the autobiographical clues of a little person who matters not in the great scheme of things (if there’s no certainty).
Who are you to call anything wrong or bad or evil or despairing? If those things really exist then by what standard are you measuring them? From whose worldview are you borrowing such terms? Are you God? Do you apply that same standard to yourself?
Blaming God for the cruelty of it all doesn’t get you anywhere (quite the opposite), especially since He would be your only way out. The ages are filled with scoffers who perished under the belief that they would be vindicated on judgment day because they were subjected to unduly high amounts of evil in this life. They were blind to the role they played in loving wickedness. Their voices were drowned out by the next generation of scoffers who assumed their plight was unique, only to again fulfill a proverb, unwittingly.
You are not a victim.
Your rant seems like you think love should reign, but why? Why should love be a supreme value? If Jesus is dead, and each one is their own malevolent deity, then why should we love anyone? Why can't parents just abort their kids whenever they feel like it? Why can't kids just blow everyone's head off when things seem inconvenient? And what is love anyways?
You might even know the answers, but cannot explain why those answers should matter.
Your observations are only shallow hints at what is true. Don't pat yourself on the back for seeing a causal relationship here or there. Even a broken clock accurately tells time twice a day.
If you genuinely were confused, then you'd be humbly seeking wisdom instead of pointing fingers. You are not that messed up, actually, but you are a wimp and a hypocrite for looking to blame others first.
You could continue to sulk in a victim's role, but soon people stop caring because crying “Wolf!” becomes a downer eventually.
So what if parents bear some responsibility for their kids' evil? Are the kids off the hook? Who forced my hand when I was enjoying my pathetic rebellion? Or who will be held responsible if you kill yourself?
You should apologize for holding my friends hostage to your impending doom/suicide. They are not responsible for keeping you alive, and what you do 'for them' is not clarifying the truth or loving. As long as Dr. Josh is ill, can he rightly proffer medicine?
The darkness will overtake you if you continue to deny your actual blindness and dire need of mercy. You don't want that. Death would be the beginning of eternal separation from even the good things in this cruel world - forever. It only gets worse. Far worse.
Yours would be a sad story, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's not necessary. You have not read the last chapter yet. The voice of wisdom cries out to you and says, "Turn around! While you can still smell the sulfur, go back to the beginning and re-plot the course of things."
The world doesn't love you. God and a few people very well may, but not this present, dark world. Your outlook is soaked with the confusion of this place, and so I say that a new set of lenses is required.
Evil is real and you will remain under its spell until you hate it enough to cry out (or perish). The Creator/Savior has made a way of escape, but it’s foolishness to those who love this world. Will you be a fool in this world, or be a despairing non-victim of its doom?
If all this seems too prescriptive or simplistic for your deep dilemma, then all I can say is that you are not really that complex in the first place. Don’t make it out to be more aggravated than it already is. There can be no remedy where you see no real malady. And if you are only interested in carrying on as you are, then the end is near. You should fear.
Maybe you’re just pining for attention, and since folks don’t want to be a party to your doom then stringing them along allows you to feel cared for. I don’t know.
Sounds to me like you actually enjoy pitch black eyesight. Perhaps you will smell the stench of your mess and hate it, finally.
You might want to set your privacy filter to block onlookers like me (as did Ms. Black Sunshine) from peeking into your darkness.
Paul – you sound like a very well read and educated person. You can probably quote scripture circles around the likes of me. But you remind me of a priest that walks by and ignores a Samaritan that is hurting. Compassion and love always trumps impeccable logic and reasoning. Certainly love sometimes needs to be tough, but it first needs to be recognized as love. Josh has asked for answers, no one was else was making an effort, so I am.
Josh – the third undeniable truth of life. We all want to be relevant. This can be tough, because the whole world is telling us otherwise. Maybe because THEY all want to be relevant, so THEY gotta put you down to make themselves something. When I was in jr. high and high school, I remember wanting so much to be noticed, as Ashley put it, to make my mark in the world, but also to fit in and be liked. But I was slammed down repeatedly. But at least I knew that I was valued a little at home. (Probably more than a little now when I look back on it). Without that, it would have been really tough. I did some really idiotic things to be noticed. Your post about the guys who set up the sound in the laundry mat made me think along these lines. It was a radical thing to do! It was pretty cool. They were saying, hey look at me, I am not afraid, I am creative, I am awesome, I have major sound, and I know how to use it, I can do this and the hell with the establishment, I matter and nobody is gonna convince me otherwise. Well hoorah for rugged individualism. (As long as it doesn’t hurt someone or destroy someone’s property). I have thought recently of the lyrics of a Neil Diamond song, (this really ages me doesn’t it.
"I am," I said
To no one there
And no one heard at all
Not even the chair
"I am," I cried
"I am," said I
And I am lost, and I can't even say why
Leavin' me lonely still
I think for some people, becoming relevant is actually more important than life. We WILL have relevance! They willingly risk their lives to be noticed. Risking life makes them feel alive I think.
I remember driving home from my Dad’s funeral. On the road I meet a 4X4 pickup. It is jacked 4 feet up in the air, huge tires, and fancy rims. All chromed out and shiny. Every possible cool thing is attached to this truck. Driver wearing cool shades and sporting an “in” hair do. Everything about this little picture is, HEY EVERYBODY, LOOK AT ME!! I am cool. I am somebody. I matter. I have life, and I am livin’ it to the max.
Well, you can’t imagine how empty and vain that all seemed right after my Dad’s funeral. Didn’t he realize that truck would count for NOTHING when he was dead?
So what really gives life meaning, what gives life substance, what gives life an anchor when everything else is gone with time.
I think : Selflessness. Giving. Doing things for others. Helping others. The exact opposite of what you might think at first.
For what it’s worth, these are just some things I’ve thought about in the past.
Hey Josh... just wanted to let you know that I don't join with Paul in his condemnation. I'm appreciating Mr. Appleseed's thoughts and I'm glad to get to know you better through your responses.
Well I however think Paul said some of the things I didnt say in my post. Such as this isnt the first time and are plight isnt different than other generations. But does that take away from the severeity of the actuel circumstances? I Think we can all agree its worse tahn the last generation if for the simple reason only of more and more despondant kids.
And Paul... I dont understand where you are coming from on the me wanting people to buy in!? That is the last thing I want to do. I specifically keep Ashley away from some of that stuff. The last thing I want is to see one of my friends head that way.
As for the my funeral comment??? I dont understand where you are coming from again. I dont want to perish with the world? I ahve already made this very clear. As of now I am sitting like I detached from everything. Its what it feels like anyways. Im neither engaging in some of the activities the fallen do but nor am I with God. Im am just lost... I wonder without purpose or direction.
As for me identifying evil my standards are that of the bible and the church I went to for years. My standards of evil are probably very close to that of any christian. I have a few different viewpoints on some things but they are not extreme in any way.
As for me pointing fingers. Yes I did blame unloving parents in this post but would you disagree?? That is like getting hit in a car accident and then blaming me for saying she did it when she did? Or like you giving praise to God. You are pointing fingers my friend. You alwyas do in every context. I will tell you I am mostly responsible for the posistions I am in. BUT. I dont know if you have ever been to profesional counseling but they sit there listening to your life and they can say you are insecure because of soemthing that happened when you were kid. That is about the extent of my accusing directly relating to my life. Your parents are what you learn to imitate. I believe the Bible even says that parents will be held more responsible for their childrens actions because it does give you a hint into how they were raised. I do know for a fact that there is a verse about Teachers of the word are to be held twice as accountble before GOd. And living in a xian home your parents are teachers of the word as well.
True love, true passion, and true joy. I do know what these are. To a point you will never understand. And I will not explain this thouraly until later perhaps. But mind you I know what they are like and dont you tell me I have no clue after all you are not in my shoes.
" A wimp and a hypicrite for accusing others first". I am not accusing others first. By no means am I. I hate myself for jsut about everyhting. I really do not think I point to many fingers other to God and to my parents. Well and xians alot of times. And I dont neccasrily do it to make me feel better. The main motive is trying to get them to open their eyes so they can help thise in trouble. I have never been one to accept or want help for since I was young. I have always loved to try and help I find it the most rewarding. I try and keep these kids I meet afloat until a xian can get to them because I would feel like a hypicrite to try and teach them. I could proabbaly convince them better than most xianss just cause i know what they are feeling but It wouldnt be right for me to do so since I myslef am not actuelly compleatly following some of these things.
As for my friends responsible for me being alive. You spun it another way. THey themselves do not know thats why I am around. I would be helkd responsible for my suicide I am aware of that. Im not sure I could do it. Its alot harder than it looks actuelly. I learned that from the few tims I tried. But indeed they are why I am here.
Oh and you said even if parents are responsible are the kids of the hook? What kidn of stupid question is that. Of course they are not off the hook. We are to be held accountable for our actions on judgement day. My only comfort is I know exactly why I do things and wont have a problem telling GOd the truth because I do everything with the best intentions.
You also say maybe I am just looking for attention. That is the last thing on my mind. Ask Ashley that. I ahte being the spotlight of anything. I always sit in the back row of everyhting. I always blend into the crowd so I wont be noticed. I fi want to be noticed sure I can do it but so can we all. I think the times Im most noticeablr is when Im happy and having a good time. Such as at Yohgurt Concerts (that electro punk band) They have concerts alot featuring other bands. Yesterday was in a place called Bagels and Brew and it had some awesome, AWESOME, acousitc bands befor hand. Amazing stuff. I love music. It is my drug. Anyways. I am not looking for attention. As a matter of fact I told Ashley I was jsut going to stop posting a long time ago and she told me people have emailed her saying they actuelly enjoy what I ahve to say and she does too so for there sake I continue and I dont mind. After all It jsut means I get to do my favorite thing ever...debates.
And once again. I am not stringing people along so I feel cared for?! How would that make me feel better?? Leading others to destruction. I mean I dont understand if you are trying to say I am the reason for Geoffs current state or Ashleys but I am not. Why dont you ask Geoff personally if I led him that way. As a matter of fact I remember the first time I saw his myspace. You could tell this kid was hurting. I started talking to him. Telling him waht I ahve done and he should avoid. I tried understanding why he was the way he is. One of the most depressed kids I ahve ever read comment. I found out why and can understand like hell why. The church is so judgemental about everyhting. Weekly or monthly gossip meetings. Making no ones bussiness everyones bussiness. The church is the main ponter of fingers my friend.
Finally...I do hate the stench of my mess. I am proactivly trying to find away out. You dont know though becasue after all you dont see me every day. You proabably wouldnt even tell the difference between you and me. Or any other xian and me. Other than the superficial me wearing black. Once you got to talking I bet it would be jsut like every other xian parent I ahve met or teacher at Logos that I have actuelly talked to. They all respect me and say Im a good kid. etc. No more or less than you yoursel fmy get actuelly. Whatever. I feel like I jsut patted myself on the back there. Which I also despise. I leave the patting for others to do.
I for one, support what Paul has posted, repentance, personal responsibility unpopular messages, yes, but true ones. Why is it that when someone proclaims personal responsibility, repentance and faith it's deemed 'unloving and without grace'? How can we walk by a burning house and not do/say anything? We don't shake our head and say, 'too bad for them, they're going to perish', is that loving?! No! We run to the door, pound on it, go in and shout, "wake up, move, get out!". Proclaim the warnings, it's a crisis here with these young people. I think that's what Paul was trying to say. We're not on a cruise ship here, it's a spiritual war for hearts, it's life and death in a very real sense. Thus, Paul's so called harsh words are with merit given the state of these three youth we see sitting on the edge of the black hole . . which one will jump/fall/be pushed in? Yes, let's make a warm fire over here, away from the edge of the pit and talk, I liked the first analogy of Johnny A. But then again, there have been so many many words, Josh isn't going to be 'convinced' of anything, he has his mind made up. (I don't know about Ashley and Geoff) there is a time to talk, but sadly if there is no ear to hear, then what? I'm crying out, but I'm crying out to the only one who can indeed change anyone from the inside out, 'Oh God, reach them, save them.'
I dont think God will save those who ahve forsaken him... But I am with you on what Paul said. I do believe what he is saying is good. I think I acknowledged that. Some may say that he is being mean or harsh or is he just caring enough to be honest?
And My mmind is not made up. If it was I wouldnt be asking quesitons and Immpretty sure I would be a little more hostile. And life would be peachy becasue I would jsut be like hey its all good. But its not...cause all day I think about what happens after this all. Just like Johnny said about after the funeral seeing the truck. Thats how everything is with me. Anyways I have to go once again. Ill post comment later re adressin what ever is said.
I have always thought the actions of men are the best interpreters of their thoughts. ~John Locke
Paul – I would like to revise my assessment of your post. Using the analogy of the priest walking by the man by the road who had been stripped, beaten and left half dead. The Samaritan did not grab the man by the nap of the neck tell him off with words like, wimp, hollow clamor, hypocrite, rant, little person, shallow, fool, and stench. I am sure someone who knows what is in our hearts could use those kinds of words, and worse against all of us. But he hasn’t, he just offers help. Jesus was accused of associating with the undesirables and sinners of that day. So telling someone they are a bad, (even if it is true) doesn’t seem productive to me. Ultimately the man who was robbed and beaten would need to take responsibility for himself, but clearly in his current condition he needed a hand up.
Short message from someone who will not make it a habit to comment:
While others are to blame for some conditions people find themselves in, the person affected is ultimately responsible. Did we get shot or shoot ourselves? They might have knived us but we didn't take it out. Ultimately it is us, so it is left to us to move on, fix it, whatever I think you knwo what I mean. We can blame others, because they might have started it, but we therefore have the responsibility to fix it since we see the problem. The real problem after that is finding out how to solve it and all the psycological complications following.
As far as Josh's misery being attractive to Ashley and Geoff, I dont think so. I talked to her about it and she is not happy that he is having a hard time, she doesn't see him and say "i wish i was that 'messed up'". But, I think that she can possibly Geoff can relate to him to some extent... know where he's coming from and together can carry on.. help each other you know? Makes sense to me. Help where we can. Say what you will-- takes one to know one or whatever.
In his defense, when he enjoys his "pitch black eyesight"... could it be that colour would be worse? Nevermind i'm not going there.
I know, and I hope Josh knows, that you guys are well intentioned. Appleseed and Paul both want to see 'recovery'. I appreciate the love I hear in BrianRachel and Appleseed's comments, but I can apprieciate Paul's urgent way of putting things (just another way to show concern).
As for 'anonymus' comment who said "personal responsibility is without grace" I beg to differ. Josh never denied personal responsibility, maybe it might seem that way once in a while, but dont we all? How many of us always take responsilbility for what we do? We have to see that it's not all our fault, nor is it all their fault. it's two-fold. Why is it that when we say that people think we are denying responsibility?
I think both Appleseed and Paul have a point. But I dont think that Josh is completely wrong. he has some points, points that need to be addressed, not always fought. He is wrong on some issues, but everything....? Just something to consider.
Anonymus: "there have been so many many words, Josh isn't going to be 'convinced' of anything, he has his mind made up. there is a time to talk, but sadly if there is no ear to hear, then what?" So what does this mean? You think you know when someone will be convinced? You think you know where that line is? How can you claim to know something like that? That frusterates me. So he comes back with more of his thoughts and questions and objections... because he is doing this this means he cannot be convinced? Maybe, but maybe not. How dare you declare that he wont listen. I for one appreciate his honesty; and he is responding to you all-- how many people would respond after all this? Not everyone. I think most people would just block you all... just something to think about.
Thank you all for your concern of these young kids, I for one have read everything that has been going on and think it is a good thing happening. Keep it up. I encourage you all to keep an 'open' mind (not relativistic).. maybe someone has a point, dont be quick to dismiss something unless its well founded objection. Dont reject it because of the person, and this applies to everyone....
I know Ashley and I know that she has been judged for being friends with both Josh and Geoff. That ticks me off as well. She has been judged and misunderstood alot of her life, which has made her hesitant to be honest ot anyone. Recently she just had to get it out. What happened afterwards has made her decide never to open up again... it wasn't worth it. You guys blew your chance to show her love. I coudl go on but I will refrain.
I said all that just to say that Josh is being honest and is saying what he thinks. That is a fragile thing. Respond, disagree, say what you will, but be careful. Dont chase him away, I plead with you. Truth and love. They should never be seperated.
im fat ur fat were all fat in a big world. what to do. lets all go and play ring around the rosies and then commit suicide. i like the movie good luck check. dyk that the oldest living man is really old. and what is that rape thing about. did you know that people in china are starving and all you guys can think about is how bad your lives are. kinda sad if you ask me... do you know anyone who is for comunisum because i have always wanted to konw how stupid you would have to be to go for comunism. ok bye
I think we are all overlooking one very important fact here: We are human. This means we make mistakes, this means we are vile, evil creatures, this means a whole lot more, but what it really means is that Josh is Josh, a human being created by God and just as much allowed to love and be loved as the rest of us. If you cannot accept him for what he is then you cannot help him. I appreciate those of you who can look past the superficial and see a hurting man, and as a result genuinely want to help. Those of you who are otherwise are more likely to harm then help.
"there have been so many many words, Josh isn't going to be 'convinced' of anything, he has his mind made up. there is a time to talk, but sadly if there is no ear to hear, then what?"
I find this the most offensive words spat here. I find it the most offensive because that's how I think a lot of people thing toward the three of us; Josh, Ashley, and myself. We have somehow become this stubborn set of children who won't heed the words of anyone or anything. Bite your tongues!
I find a fundamental flaw here, something I have noticed every day since these problems first arose, before even Josh was in the picture, and that is that most of the people who judge us don't even know us. A lot of those who comment here know Ashley well, and me to a lesser extent, but I can say from my own perspective that most of my most negative reviewers don't know a thing about me, have never spoken to me much in the past, or even made the attempt to understand the complex puzzle that if Geoffrey. I am not going to point fingers or name names. They know who they are. I know that I have personally felt a cold, bitter rejection by people who have formed their ideals of me on how who they think I am, on the similar imaginations of others, and likely through gossip and misinformation.
My point here is that a lot of you don't know Josh. I myself have never met him in person, so even I can be counted among those who do not TRULY know Josh, but i have taken the time to talk to him and befriend him, and I have learned much about his character. A lot of you have not undergone such friendship and know nothing about Josh other than what you've heard from others, which can easily be warped to that person's individual outlook on the subject. To call him stubborn, or anything for that matter, when you do not truly know him is a slander to his character. A character, I might point out, that you know nothing about. I simple wish to state this: Don't come to conclusions if you don't know the facts. Like a scientist forming his hypothesis, he needs cold, hard facts to back it up. If you do not know the facts, then how can you form a conclusion? I greatly appreciate those of you who have approached this acknowledging this fact of the existence of unknown factors instead of rushing to conclusions and absolutes.
Jesus loved even the most grotesque of characters, but in this world we have the hard time giving the benefit of the doubt, to put aside the superficial and dig down for the gold. Why can't we do just that? Some of us can, some of us can't. I believe I have been blessed with a very open mind that has allowed me to accept all. Emos, Goths, Homosexuals, Transgenders, and the generally confused person. People from all walks of life. I cannot always relate to them, but I can accept them for what they are, even if I disagree with their lifestyle or morals. That is what is called an unconditional love. It is what God has, and something we should all imitate. Can we imitate that? No. We can't. We cannot be unconditionally loving, because we are human and such perfection is alien to us. But we should try, I know I do. Not because I want to be a overly religious and score a lot of church points, but because it's something I feel is right, and something I find myself capable of doing. It might be harder for you, you are not me. Lets open our minds. The narrow mind is a one way street. Always going out, never letting in.
I say understand the person before you form a conclusion. Meet with him, talk to him, be his friend, etc. If you cannot do that, then you have no right telling him what he should do with is life. It's his life, remember that. You cannot lead it for him, but you can offer advice. For better or worse.
There has been a lot of positive criticism, and I feel that this is a good step. Johnny Appleseed, for one, has made the attempt to get to know Josh, using the power of a gentle word to get down to the core of the debate. I can just as much agree with Paul's statement. Sometimes a cold slap is what is needed to bring us around. I think you both have pros and cons, but arguing between your approaches? For shame. If you fight amongst yourselves, you'll never help us. Acceptance is the key here. If you can't first help us for who we are, then you have no place in this debate of souls.
But, you might say in counter to my statements above, "You don't know us either." This is true, but I would not hesitate to do so. I am not the antisocial, stubborn rebel people seem to think I am. People stay away from me, afraid to talk or, in some circumstances, even make eye contact with me. They created the barrier there, not me. Perhaps I have been reclusive and unwilling to step beyond that, but I can see when I am unwanted, and I stay away from that because things could get ugly. If the barrier was opened and I was allowed inside, then yes, I would take that step. I would get to know those who think they know me, those with the preconceived notions of who I am. I would set them straight as best as I can. We just want to be accepted, or failing that left to our machinations. Is that too much to ask for? If you are not here to accept us, then you are wasting your time. Go home.
Well here I am at the library so I will keep this one short. Blitzkrieg and Geoffykins have both said what I ahve said or what i would say and agree upon. So i dont have much to say. Only to this random commentor still. I do not understand why you persist at this? You say we shoudl spend our time doing things instead of the computer yet here you are like clockwork commenting again and again?
We are self centered? Uhm I dont even know what to say about this.
You always say something about there are people worse off. Or kids starving in Africa. Well yes there is thank you for that rather obvious comment. Why dont you go help then. You dont ignore a problem because there is another one. Specially one so irrelevant and not even in the picture as you use. I will ask you once again to just please stop. You are the one sounding like an idiot day in and day out. I do not see what satisfaction you could possibly get from sounding so stupid. -.-
Safe yourself the embaresment.
Wow, well there has been a lot said here, good stuff mostly. First I want to address the hard stuff. Geoff criticized me for arguing about approaches. He is right. I even wish I had not been sarcastic towards the anonymous who called me stupid several days back. When we are personally attacked, we get defensive, it is a natural reaction. But what I would like to learn is that it is not about me, it is about truth, and I should not let my personal vanity get in the way. So instead of being critical of his approach, I should be commenting on the merits of his points.
Josh, something you said in your last blog post interested me. After all, it just means I get to do my favorite thing ever, debate. Is this your calling? I can see you debating for truth, unconditional love, and all that is pure, honest and right. Doing it in humility, but effectively and with love. You just have to figure out what it all is. Then you could help others find it. I was told when I was young that I was a wimp, and that I was stupid. It took me a long time to get out of that thinking, I am still working on it in fact. No one ever told me I could do anything I wanted, or anything I put my mind to, or put the effort into. Who would have ever guessed it would be something as simple as planting appleseeds! So your comment there was the first I have heard of what you like to do. And I can see that you could be good at it. But use it for good, or it could be used as a sword against you. You can do it, if that is what you love.
Dare I say it? What is truth? Do you remember this list?
1-Honesty
2-Loyalty
3-Loving – even when it’s not convenient
Or - acceptance / non-judgmental
4-Perseverance / Drive
5-Unselfishness
May I add:
6-Personal responsibility
(this is something you seemed to be in agreement with in your post responding to Paul)
Can you think of others?
Where do you think these things came from? Are they just fabrications of our minds? Or is there a God that made them so, and put them deeply into us, so we would have to deliberately ignore them to deny them. Are there those who profess to embrace them, but do not live their lives like they believe it. Yep. But what is that to you, does that let you or me off the hook? How do we really find truth, how do we fill in the gaps?
Paul here, writing to Josh and no other, again.
Thanks for your reply. I blinked and there’s like 16 comments on your board. After all that’s been said, I wonder if you’d been better off if I just sat silently in the background. Not that you should care about what I have to say in the first place. But since I volleyed first, perhaps a rejoinder would at least show that I never intended to hit-n-run and that I don’t think yours is a hopeless case, yet.
Words matter a lot. That’s partly why I didn’t think the three downer-blogs were a joke.
If my words seemed too strong for you, then I am at least guilty of taking your words at face value. Others might think that you’re just venting to clear the buildup or whatever, but I actually thought your writings were serious – not just steam.
Some of my post was a summary response to all the crap that you have written in your blog and in the comment sections, while some of it was directly responding to your last dirge. I didn’t jump into those earlier dialogues because I wasn’t sure that I should. Only after reading your last post did I muster the gall to intrude. It was only about three weeks ago that I discovered this triad of dark musings, and it was all so amazing to me since I know Ash and Geoff and have observed their zeal for life.
Like them, you seem humbler and wiser when you communicate outside of your blog posts/essays.
Despite the criticism my comments have received here, I stand by them. If you found my voluminous, rhetorical questions impossible to navigate, the salient points could be boiled down (in no particular order) into a few statements:
~ all criticism implies an absolute standard – so I connect the dots this way: you need the God who defines reality to make sense of logic/morality/pursuit of true knowledge. You borrow from God’s worldview to criticize anything (or else it’s rightly yours by inheritance thru faith/fearing God)…
~ confusion and error should lead to humility, such that the one gripped by these things doesn’t slash or try to cure others while they are still oozing blood themselves…
~ the desire for self-murder as a way of escape or playing god is utterly serious, both for you and for those whom your life touches…
~ owning & renouncing your trespasses first will safeguard you against hypocrisy, as well as soften the desire for vengeance (because the same measure will be applied to you)…
The first one is vague and too philosophical for most, so tarry with me while I explain by way of analogy: suppose you like my car, have experience driving somewhat, and see my keys laying alone for the taking. Your desire to drive it causes you to snag the keys, hop in, fire it up, and go wherever you like. Some cop spots your erratic behavior behind the wheel and pulls you over and then asks if it’s your car, to which you reply that you are able to drive it – so obviously the ownership issue is irrelevant. The cop persists about how you came into possession of the vehicle in the first place and you insist it’s fine because you have the keys in your possession. The non sequitur never hits you until you are made to think of how the vehicle was meant to be used – basically by the owner and those who have permission to rightly drive it, despite a persons capacity to drive or hold the keys. So it is with logic, morality, and the scientific endeavor. None of it will blend together in a unified way until you get right with the One who made and ordered it all in the first place. Sure, you might use them but it’ll never function properly until your relationship is made strait.
These same things I would say to your face if I could, and hopefully it wouldn’t be interpreted as ‘kicking you while you’re down.’ Maybe then you’d see that I’m not some disaffected moron who shouts platitudes at the helpless, or a Pharisee more concerned about the letter of the law vs. the spirit.
I guess I’d like to hear your objections to trusting in the mercy of Jesus for your own life. Why do you think He hasn’t wiped you out if He has no interest in saving you? Are you too bad for the ransom paid on the cross?
The other night, I was in jail with a slew of rapists, pederasts, murderers, etc. and felt quite at home telling them to stop trusting themselves and to cast themselves at the cross for mercy. They are total losers, and I don’t hide that from them. They are products of a wicked world and a wicked heritage of non-victims, and I tell them that too. They have slandered the image of God when they hurt people, and this is I boldly assert while looking in their cold eyes. In fact, they might have bludgeoned me for repeating Jesus’ awful words that inspire holy trembling (of a future judgment wherein none escape), but then they knew intrinsically that I don’t sacrifice my Saturday nights to hang with felons just to give them half-truths. The good news isn’t really good until they’ve seen the depths of their offense to God, but it is still very good news when it comes as Jesus told it.
Though I’m an imperfect delivery system for the gracious truth of Jesus, God still would have me not be mute. After all, I am the most forgiven soul ever. Who better to educate, rebuke, and encourage the guilty with the promises of Jesus?
I don’t have the luxury of seeing your world solely through the lens of the story of the Good Samaritan, because I don’t see you as being overtaken by robbers (though you may have been assaulted, it sounds like). Plus, I have lived in despair as a teen all alone. I have put the knife to my wrist. I entertained the demons of the me-god for a season. Never would I imagine that the voices that vex your soul could be gently extinguished, especially when in my life they had to be thoroughly exorcised by ones much stronger. I wish someone had shouted into my darkness sooner, quite frankly.
Blurting out your objections to seeming incongruities in divine justice or “the church” is in no way helping you or my friends. Whoever ‘they’ are, who have torn you or my friends down, have heaped upon themselves guilt for which they must reckon. There is no excuse for hurting people. However, other people’s failures are no excuse to draw back and use victimhood to linger in the dark.
And when you say that you are still trying to figure things out, shouldn’t your accusatory tone be scaled back to match the humility of not knowing how to get out of the pit?
The shame of it all is that one offense committed against you can influence you to respond with a similar stupidity, and the downward spiral gains momentum. Even if you were blindsided by some blunt offense that you never saw coming, if it causes you to respond like ordinary sinners do, then you lose too.
I have gone and said too much, again. Too many first-person personal pronouns for someone else’s blog. Anonymous thinks you are beyond words, but I think they’re mighty powerful. If the word of God created this time/space continuum and if it is all gelled together by that same word, then it’s a small thing to keep talking in hope that it could heal…despite the paltry delivery system.
Hello crowd.
First of all, Josh, I hope you don't mind me posting. I have been guilty of "throwing Bible verses at you" in the past. In my defense though, they weren't random. :-) I'll try and be more "real" with you as a person this time.
I wanted to respond to Paul one more time. I think it's important for me to do for a few reasons. One, because we are here talking for the sake of our friends... that's you Josh... and being mad at each other isn't going to help. (Thanks Geoff for that reminder.) Two, because God says there shouldn't be rifts between fellow Christians. Three, because if it's the Paul I know in person, we'll be seeing each other and "forgetting" that we argued with each other isn't so much an option.
Paul, I think I misunderstood you. Thank you for coming back and reposting and clarifying. When I read your first post, the main thing I heard was condemnation. See, I don't have a problem with a fire and brimstone sermon when one is needed, but when one is given without seeming to love the audience, then it becomes an attack instead. I don't think you meant that. I do believe you care about Ashley and Josh and Geoff.
I first believed you were just here to get your "righteous duty" off your chest so you could feel without guilt when they "inevitably" succombed. That was unfair of me. I believe you were here to speak truth as clearly and strongly as you know it with real hope that it could be heard.
One final thought. I had a Christian friend who was struggling with the big questions about God and his character tell me that her church seemed to expect her to have all the answers. They didn't leave much room or time for her to ask the hard questions, struggle through the deep doubts. People are all at different places - and there is a time to struggle.
Well, I'm not a great speaker myself, so I'll sign off now. Back to you, Appleseed, Paul and Josh.
I dont know if I will have time to post everyhting but I shall try.
well Paul I persoannly was a little disapointed where the conversation went as soon as you posted about your being cruel and all. You didnt phase me or offend me. I just considered it honesty the way you see it. The way I need to see it. Plus verbal abuse means nothing to me. Im way to used to it for it to offend me. But im glad you are back. I think you have posted some of the best stuff taht has sent me head over heels trying to respond.
Tonight I am going to take this a different way. Because I ahve heard this all before. I know it all. I have acknowledged it. But why cant I follow it?? Some say Its because Im stubborn... you have heard me say I think Im damned and not meant to follow God.
My reasoning for this?? Its what I ahve been told years in and out by the church. By the bible itself. God can harden your heart and he can open your eyes but only he can. Can it be he has hardened my heart and closed my eyes. I have been given all the tools I need to become a christian. Hell I even was a christian until about 1 1/2 years ago.
Here I will quickly diverege to another point. SOme say you can never loose your salvation. Either this is interpreted as once your soul is Gods its always his. Or that since I lost it I never had it. -.- I have been told that I never had my salvation but I can not believe that. If that is true then there is no such thing because I can tell you then I believed as much as anyone. I believed. I know I did. I dont even know if I ahve lost it as of now... I talked to Ashley about this once.
I personally dont know where I stand. I dont ever openly oppose God unless you count asking questions like this. I think that is called "making your parents faith your own" I need reasons now. I mean the main reason I dont go to church is i dont want to be a hypocrite. How can I go to church if Im not even sure about it?? How can I take communion if I cant say taht I believe with 100% certanty of myself> How can I preach to those who need it when I cant even preach to myself about it? I am waiting for eyes to be opened. Does this mean I am just sitting there "waiting for the deer to walk into my house"? No. I am constantly searching seeking for the answers. Anyways..
I remember listening to a sermon once about LOVE at Logos by Pastor Wilson senior. He is one of the most amazing pastors I ahve ever listened to. Getting back on point. I to this day remember very well what he said that day. One of his little stories was about a marine he knew. He came to the bible studies but was never an actual believer. One day he sat down with this man and talked with him. he said that man knew everything he needed to know but he hadnt been shown the Love of Jesus christ. i thought to myself then that maybe taht was my problem?
Well even now perhaps it is. But doesnt taht sound so cheesy??? I mean honestly. I am relativly loved in general so how do I know that I ahvent been \showed the love already?? Or how big of change can that really inspire? Love...I dont know and no I need to go. Im losing my train thought and I need to go somewhere. Specifically a concert ^.^ boo yah!
And I would like to say Im sorry to hear about Katy, Ashley, and Emily's Uncle. -.- thats never cool. So I express my condolences. I hope you dont take it too hard. Death is natural and hopefully he is in a better place anyways. Anyways. g2g!!
you are once again the saddest bunch of morons i have ever talked to and believe me i have talked to a lot. you say that i am on here a lot when i tell you to not be on. well lets look at how many times i have posted. not nearly the number as you idiots and they are always short. i go and do stuff with my life. i dont just sit and say ; oh well my life sucks im just gonna watch it rot away. but hell if you want to do that fine. i dont understand people like you. its people like you that ruin nations. limp wristed idiots who cant figure out what to do with thier lives. get a life and maybe you will find out what your problem is. but sitting around and waiting never did anybody anything. so stand up to the plate and live your life.
Hey Josh, been pretty quiet here lately. I plan to post again soon, but don't have time right now.
Josh: Imagine an 8 year old boy, who has just crashed his bicycle, skinned his knee, because he hit a rock in the road. He is angry. He is crying. He is kicking his bike, and yelling at it, telling it what a stupid bike it is. He yelling at the rock, and he is mad that his knee hurts and his pants are ripped. Someone comes to help, but he yells at them and tells them he needs no help.
Imagine another little boy in the same condition, but he is sitting by his bike, head down and sobbing. Someone comes by and asks if he needs help, and he just looks up and says, “I need my Mom.”
Who do you think would be more likely to be helped? You have said things like, God disgusts me, God is sadistic, God is a monster. Just a wild guess, but I don’t think it’s helping anything as long as you are thinking these kinds of things about him. Why does God disgust you? Why do you think he’s sadistic and a monster? The God I know is full of compassion and doesn’t want anyone to perish. Can you elaborate on why you think you’re damned.
I believe taht I ahve elaborated on this subject many times. There are a few reasons and Im sure everytime I go though this I say some different ones and forgot others. But oh well..once again here it comes.
First I will come at you from a Calvinistic viewpoint/ Predestination...what if that really is true. Some of us are ordained to Hell others to Heaven and thats just the way it is. How can a man cahnge his fate taht God is in control of? How can a simple man change something as significant as his eternal life? Im myself am not sure of how I feel on this subject either. But the thought of it in itself is enough to break me and considered myself those of the damned.
As For the whole God being cruel, sadistic,etc nutshell. Can you not see that he does so much more evil than good? The billions damned to hell for not knowing, understanding, caring, or properly following Xianity The amount sent to heaven are far outnumbered by that of those in hell. I can understand why he would want a a threat out there and would want unconditional love from his servants/slaves...but does is it neccasary for him to send the billions who can not honestly love him the way others do to hell. Couldnt he just make them go into an eternal sleep?? Is he a ruler through fear? A Tyrant? If you had the choice to Love God and but you wouldnt get anything from it or not doing it, would you do it? Now these questions are hard because you take it as you know it and say, "of course I would!". But we all know this to not be the truth. Besides hy would you even want to go to heaven???? You are in a city of Gold and all kinds of shiny things. You praise God all day long etc. All those cool things. Why would you honestly want that? I personally have always hoped Death would be like sleep...just nothingness. I ahve lived long enough on this earth, there is no reason I would want to live any longer. God should have made it for those who serve him you get a bonus for those who dont they just dont get it...they can go sleep.
I also think God loves mind games. Here i will draw on personal experiences. O.o specifically that of suicidal tendacies. I ahve been force fed religion and God my whole life and now all it does is fucks with my mind. Everything I do everything I say "I could go to hell for this!!" " I need to be perfect!" all that good stuff.I dont honestly believe I could tuthfully honor God by who I am today. I also value honesty/not bending just for conformity kind of thing. I cant become a Xian jsut for the fear of Hell. Which actually is why Im here. We can go back to my 7th grade year. I had a gun once but couldnt load it. Second time It was loaded and against the roof of my mouth but I couldnt do it. Thrid time that year I sat there for hours with a knife. What kept me form doing it?... I was a coward. I didnt want to go to hell. The FEAR was too great. So I told myself it would get better.until this year I ahvent really got to the point of having rthe things for suicide with me. However in August or november..maybe even early december I did go throught. Clecnched the Jaw and cut has hard as I could. Im still here due to a dull knife unfortunatly. And after one cut that was bleeding but not by much I couldnt bring myself to not care enough again. I had finally reached the ppoint of "fuck it all!" and did it. But after I did it I couldnt do it effectivly again. Its always this fear keeping me here. Do you know how pathetic it feels to realize the only reason you are alive is because you are a coward?! Because you are afraid of what you are and the consequences? Its miserable...yo not even respect yourself and be a coward day ina nd day out. And then I take the Drugs, or smoke the cigarette, or drink the Vodka to escape the pain and deep thinking for a few hours but then afterwards the emptiness is still there. But its worse because you keep becoming more and more cowardly by trying to escape it over and over and you realize you never can. Its like living a beautiful lie. I always tell myself "It will get better" which I know it wont because I wont get better and it wont change.
During the reformation the ideas of Xian Humanism came about. this was simply something to the effect of changing the person before you could change the faith. Muich the same here. I cant handle this religion which has been thrust upon me. Its there so I cant ignore it. Me trying to handle religion is like taking a glass with a giant hole in it and tfilling it with water. It is meant for the water...to help and nourish the dehydrated but with a hole and cant even effectivly hold the water, let alone hydrate those who need it.
And I would like to say more but I need to go to bed. Im wicked tired.
Josh, Thanks for going through that for me, I hadn’t heard all of it. I know little about the Calvinistic viewpoint. It sounds as if it means that everyone is predestined to either heaven or hell, and that you have some doubts about this belief. I think that if we all are predestined then God would be cruel and sadistic like you said, if he is damning even one person to hell. I wonder in this teaching if you are “chosen” for heaven, if there is anything you can possibly do to go to hell, or, if you are “not chosen” is there anyway you can possibly make it to heaven?
I would say God does want our love, but he FIRST demonstrated his unconditional love for us by giving us the very best thing he had to give. This is why we love him, not because we have to. I do not believe that he is a ruler through fear, or a tyrant. You asked if there was no reward for loving God, would I do it? That is a rhetorical question that is not possible for me to answer, because it isn’t rooted in reality. It would be like asking if the moon was really made of cheese, would you be able to get a suntan there? Why would I want to go to heaven? Because this world is not my home. There is pain and sorrow here. Everything good here ends, and the good things aren’t near as good as they first seem. I am looking for a better place.
I don’t believe God force feeds anyone. God is full of compassion and mercy. He is not trying to trick anyone or mess with their minds. I don’t believe he is looking for perfection. Look at King David. You could say he was a coward and a murderer. He arranged the killing of the husband of the woman he wanted, yet he ended up right with God. That inspires me to believe that I am not beyond his love.
Why do you think you feel emptiness? The very fact that feeling is there is confirmation that God is dealing with you, and wants to give you something to fill that void. And he can.
You said that you would like to say more…, I hope you do.
Paul here, again, with another rather long screed against your unbelief and confusion.
Your case against God is weak, ill-informed, and hardly worth remaining hardened over.
Sounds like your basic problem is that God isn’t you or someone like you. As if your moral compass should be the truth. Your sense of generosity and mercy ought to flourish. Your dreams about time and eternity should stand. Basically, you’re pissed that the God of the bible is so very different from you (not that you understand Him all that well in the first place).
If the grace of God allows you to live much longer, you might just eventually take solace in the fact that He is not a man and not much like yourself (fickle, unwise, bent towards emotional extremes, etc.).
You said that God was…
--in control over who is saved and who perishes…
Indeed, His prerogative reigns over the wills of corrupt men. Yet you seem to miss the essential details involving just how He makes any of us willing to come to Him in the first place. The elect don’t get saved regardless of how they live, arbitrarily chosen in spite of their corruption. None of us ‘conformists’ ever actually sought Him because we desired a non-smoking eternal habitation or because we schemed a better angle on retirement (though self-preservation isn’t evil in itself), but our very desires had to change at the most basic level. We had to see how lame and hopeless we were in ourselves before we could savor the offer of mercy and life in the first place. And you’re right, not everyone gets that.
You might remember the passage where Paul says that God has put us all under a yoke of bondage to futility/vanity…for the grand purpose of yearning for so much more (Rom.8). God actually planned for frustration and pointlessness to be a universal experience for Adam’s children, not as an end in itself, but as a means to a far greater end.
Paul also said that we were made to “grope” for the not-so-distant Creator. But the first premise is that this God is worth seeking like a treasure (since it is we who are lost). Not accepting lostness as an excuse for our misery seems pretty wise, especially if you know you’re screwed up.
I’m afraid that you know just enough to be jarred and deceived (as was Adam) by faithless voices. Not applying the whole truth to any cavil will lead to despair, as you’ve hinted at. Your crass understanding of election is not altogether informed.
For those of us blessed to know how corrupt our hearts were before Jesus came to us, it’s not that we are amazed that He doesn’t save all, rather, it’s amazement that He saves any at all.
Still, isn’t it a bit arrogant of you to presume to know with certainty whether you are reprobate or elect? Do you know the mind of God in these matters? Why should your sins be so offensive to merit eternal separation and mine not be?
You said that…
--God does more evil than good…numbers of damned far outweigh those preserved…
You make it sound like there’s all these innocent victims of an arbitrary monster who capriciously munches at will. Plus, you remove the evil human element from the landscape by laying blame on God’s doorstep for all the death apart from the human means.
Isn’t that a real piece of moral genius? Forgetting about how rotten people are, while labeling God as unjust and vicious for allowing it all in the first place? Oh my.
How could you even begin to quantify how much ‘good’ is done by God – especially since you seem to despise His mercy? I wouldn’t trust your measuring stick.
And who cares about numbers anyways? Why should ratios matter in the first place? Why should God be held hostage to a man-centered ideal?
I’m amazed at how trusting you are of your own perspective on such issues. The questions aren’t wrong in themselves, but you should let all the facts come to the table before an assessment is made. Then you’d not be out of line, as was Job – until he was made to see what it’s like to be God for an hour. Job recanted all of his seemingly deep objections to divine justice once he got outside of his perspective and let God speak.
Job’s problem was summed up when he humbly admitted, "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6) Huge difference: scant knowledge vs. clear insight.
You said that God was somehow blameworthy because…
--millions damned for not knowing, caring…
Not knowing true things kills people all the time. Not knowing about how disease festers and promulgates itself has wiped out entire communities with plagues. Not knowing that the blind cannot lead the blind has led totalitarian governments to kill tens of millions of it’s own citizens. Not remembering the lessons of the past has caused cycles of stupidity to curse and kill people everywhere.
But not knowing/caring about God is totally inexcusable. He isn’t hiding His face from those who are broken and genuinely seeking.
Where are the masses of neutral folks who are being forced into a miserable eternity? How can we interview them? What do they look like? Are they waiting, wishing a savior would whisk them to green pastures – only to be unwittingly devoured by death and then tortured forever? Who are these people, and what planet do they live on?
You would vindicate human nature but slam God? I’m afraid your naiveté regarding what makes people tick is made obvious by such erroneous words. People aren’t really good in their core unless they are refashioned from the ground up by the One who defines ‘good’ Himself.
You said that…
--heaven is a place of shiny, happy things…
This is such a red herring. I’ve often told sinners that they would hate heaven, the place. Such a place is far less defined by what it looks like than Who is there. And who would want to live in the presence of a Person who is all about themselves? Heaven isn’t about us anymore that life is about us – but especially this place where everything is in peace and harmony with God all the time.
No more error. No private closets. No margins for folly to exist. No lies. No shadows to lurk in. Basically, none of the things that sinners use to cloak themselves with in this life will ever be experienced in heaven.
The heaven vs. hell issue is not the gospel. It’s about a Person, not a place. God Himself is the good news, and it’s He who will make glad the people who are blessed with eternal life. People don’t go to heaven because they desire happiness, nor do they go to hell for succumbing to misdeeds. It’s about core desire. Desires are the far more accurate barometer of destiny, more than deeds, and hell-bound souls don’t want God to rule over them. They want life on their terms. They want to define reality. They want to be lied to about their nature, while they seek feel-good substitutes to cover up their indifference to loving the unlovable.
So much of your confusion centers on mulling over false dilemmas, and this is one of them. Heaven doesn’t exist to make you happy, as if you were the center of the universe. Hell won’t be so bad because of flames and torment, but because those in it will have a conscious memory of the whiff of true satisfaction they tasted in this world, however brief a time and small the amount.
You said that…
--God should have made it so the lost simply fade into eternal sleep…
Since you’re imagining a better, different reality then why not just rewrite the whole script while you’re at it? Wishful thinking doesn’t amount to an argument against reality. How neat and tidy things would be for sinners to pretend this world were all about them, leave a path of destruction behind, and then just be annihilated so as not to bother them anymore with the pesky matter of justice.
And it’s this righteous aspect of God that sinners hate the most. They like vengeance, but not justice. They want others punished for their crimes, just not their own. They apply one standard that if followed across the board would mean they too would be damned. So they hate the whole matter, preferring to sip on cocktails of relativism and/or partisanship, all the while they undermine others who would seek truth.
Indignation over perceived wrongs is not a bad thing. I just question my own perception more than I would dare to question that of God almighty. We are not privy to all the facts, nor are we capable of feeling the rejection, insult, and disdain that God must feel as He unfolds history. Wisdom would have me give Him the benefit of every doubt, and that’s something you need to cultivate if you are uncomfortable with darkness.
It sounds like you fear death & judgment, but you don’t let that fear take you to it’s true Master. It wasn’t for fear of God that led Adam & Eve to be their own gods and redefine good and evil. We inherited self-trust from them as the ultimate sign of our corruption. A good first step for you would be to stop trusting yourself…
I find that incredibly ironic that you had to post today. I actually hit the same conlcusion you basically pointed out. Well in general. Not on everything... I still think some of us are damned simply because thats what I was always taught and the things I ahve arrived to think. My parents always said some people are put on this earth to test us. As if we Xians remain constant and sinners are just passing through to test us or soemthing. SOmehting that I dont really believe that much..although at the same time I dont really consider me living my life. I consider my self passing through others lives. O.o
Anyways. Im going to try and make sense here. My comment might not be very intelectual at all. But all today I was thinking and in a rather reclusive mode and really didnt do much. It actually hit me when I was reading one of my books. Which is actaully bout Vampires ^.^ What makes this book so awesome is the vampires struggle with religion, God, and his damnation. He sounds alot like me in many ways. (as chessy as that sounds) But today it hit him to in a dialogue with a vampire that is trying to get him to cast aside his dillemas and embrace himself for what he is. (it was much more complicated and deep in the book) Then it hit me...maybe I am that way about God..just in an opposite way. Kind of like you said. I think my plight is something original. I trust myself and my opwn perogitive too much. Letting go completly is the hardest part I suppose.
Im neutral in almost every stance we ahve talked about. But I have arguments to support the way I lean. Im just not sure of anything and havent been forever. Whatever... Im kind of tired of the theology debate for a very long time. I jsut dont know if I even care. If its worth it...
My life is wicked crazy anyways. So whatever...I dont even know if I finished my points...I dont reall care though. Your right Im wrong. How it is I suppose. what else is new.
Paul here.
Sorry for the long gap in the discussion. The other day I had typed a post but the power cycled and the whole thing was lost before it could make it online. Sheesh.
Briefly, I am less interested in winning a debate or whatever than in getting you to consider things that are transforming me. Realizing one's own defect(s) and allowing it to give pause in judgment seems like the best first step for anyone, especially you. My hope is that you'd become more open to letting the Lord pick you up His way and in His time as you grow in humility.
The world of flesh, things, and dreams of domination has it out for you. If you won't be consumed by or complicit with it, then it'll turn on you and destroy your soul. Sounds fantastic, for sure, but this grid works pretty accurately when you allow the truth of Jesus to scrub your lens.
I'm the ultimate kool-aid drinker when it comes to Jesus because I don't think there's any alternative but life or death - with Him or not. Pragmatic testers of Jesus have only half-committed and found the ride too harsh before they eventually turn back to the world. Trusting Jesus is like trusting an antidote for a snakebite: you can have weak faith in the antidote while still injecting it, and it'll be effective still. Why? Because the effectiveness of faith isn't in how strong or weak it is itself, but in the strength of it's object. Jesus saves weak, prone-to-weirdness sinners like me because it's Him, not me, that makes the difference when I commit/inject.
So, commit. Half-stepping or taste-testing won't deliver you from the darkness of despair. Inject the antidote no matter how many unresolved questions or doubts you might have. Life is only found in the One who lives forever.
You'll never experience the exhilaration of deliverance until you surrender your humble self to Him who freely forgives and re-creates lost souls.
It might be more pleasant to talk about inoccuous, temporal things for a change of pace. But I cannot shake the fact that your soul hangs in the balance of time and eternity. Nothing could be more important.
Still occasionaly checking for signs of life.., real or artificial.
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